HT.032 Eugene “Rod” Roddenberry, Jr.

Sarah Ray: I don’t think there’s a word for how excited we are today to be joined by a very special guest on First Contact Day, no less. Oh my gosh. Happy First Contact Day!

Allie Ashmead: Happy First Contact Day to you.

Sarah Ray: He’s carrying on the legacy of the Great Bird of the Galaxy, Gene Roddenberry’s son. Rod Roddenberry. Rod is the CEO of Roddenberry Entertainment, which just keeps delivering more Trek for us to feast on.

And through the Roddenberry Foundation, he brings Gene’s vision of a better tomorrow closer and closer to reality. Emmy nominated EP Rod Roddenberry, welcome aboard Humanist Trek, and thank you so much for joining us today.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Hey, I’m so glad you guys have me. Yes, yes. Happy First Contact Day! Happy First Contact Day.

Sarah Ray: Can I ask you a weird question right off the bat? And we may use this, we may not.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: I prefer weird questions.

Sarah Ray: Cool. So we reached out to you and said, “Hey, we do this podcast, would you like to come on and chat with us.” What made you say yes?

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Well, humanist, atheist, I mean, I don’t wanna sound like I’m two-faced or have two totally different personalities, but there is sort of like, I would say probably everyone has this now in the day of social media or everyone, I don’t wanna say everyone intelligent…

But anyhow, you have sort of what you’re willing to say publicly and then you have your true thoughts. And while my public discussions and what I say are certainly a piece of my, and true may not be the best word to use, but my deeper thoughts. When it comes to being atheist, humanist, let’s just say it, not believing in God, those are my true feelings. And the fact that there is, there’s a group out there, and I’m sure there’s many people out there who wants to discuss this in a way. I welcome that. I’m excited. I wouldn’t call myself a card carrying whatever, atheist, humanist, I just don’t believe in the supernatural.

Now, if we get into it, and I’m sure you guys have these great conversations and I hope we can get into it. I love the idea of what could be confused as God or, there’s perhaps energies or science or something out there that might seem mystical to us, that we might interpret or get confused and think it’s ghosts or whatever the case is. I’m willing to have that discussion. Is there something out there? Is there something– are humans from the future sending images back? I don’t know what it is, but I enjoy, that’s like fun talk, you know?

That’s exciting. But if you’re telling me there is a child that died in the 1800’s that walks around your house, I’m not gonna call you dumb. I’m not gonna say you’re wrong. I’m not gonna say that’s stupid. I’m gonna say I don’t necessarily believe that. But is there some sort of weird something that could be explained by science one day?

Sarah Ray: Right?

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Is there something happening temporally or whatever that is causing something? That is kind of the cool stuff. But I do not believe that, you know, from the great beyond a young girl who perhaps was taken too young and in a horrible way is simply being left here to roam the Earth or to roam whatever realm it is, you know?

So, anyhow, sorry, we just got right into it. I love that stuff.

Allie Ashmead: Me too.

Sarah Ray: That’s one of the things I think a lot of people have a hard time with is that idea that it’s okay to say, “I don’t know”. It’s okay to not have the answer.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Yes.

Sarah Ray: And it’s, you know, there’s nothing wrong with acknowledging, “I don’t know. And maybe one day we’ll figure it out. In the meantime, it’s really interesting to think and talk about that”.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Well, and it’s okay to say, “I don’t believe” either.

Sarah Ray: Yes!

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: I don’t believe in God.

Allie Ashmead: A hundred percent.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: I don’t even believe in any version of God. If there is a super powerful being out there, it’s an alien who came here and was insecure enough to try to make us worship him or her or it. So yeah, I mean that’s a whole ‘nother thing.

Allie Ashmead: We can do an ancient aliens podcast one day.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Oh, I’m sure we could. Yeah.

Allie Ashmead: I did some Googling and I understand that you, actually, growing up did not watch “Star Trek”, but I understand that you did get into it a little bit later. So can you talk about your experience like delving into “Star Trek” for the first time?

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Yes it is true. I didn’t really watch “Star Trek” as a kid. I mean, I saw Star Wars in the movie theater and, you know, ’77 when I was four years old and loved it and saw it over and over. I remember my father took my first grade, was it first grade or primary, whatever, I think we were in first grade, took my entire elementary school to see “The Motion Picture” when it came out, I think in ’79. Or am I getting my numbers mixed up, whatever the year was, or was that “Jaws”? Well, crap. I don’t know. And I was bored out of my fricking mind.

You know, there’s people who grow up and they have sort of, maybe an intellect, they’ve got a young intellect and they’re able to be curious about science fiction and see these kinds of movies like “2001” and at a young age really kind of grasp them. I will openly say that I was just a typical dumb little kid who wanted to watch laser fights, and action, and explosions. So, I did not watch, nor was I into “Star Trek” at a young age. I didn’t get into it until, I’d say right around the age of 13, 14, right around “(The) Next Generation”.

My father would bring the tapes home every Thursday of the episodes– VHS– and I would come home from school and watch ’em. It took me a while. It’s not like day one, episode one I was into it. I did work on the show as a 13 year old, 14 year old as a PA.

Allie Ashmead: Oh, cool.

Sarah Ray: Super cool.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: But, you know, as a kid didn’t really appreciate or grasp the magnitude of what I was doing. Even though it was just delivering scripts and coffee. So it took a little while, but, you know, I watched it and I was like, “oh, you know, I, I kind of like this. There is a different kind of show besides “Night Rider.” It doesn’t have to be just good guys/ bad guys. Right. There is complexity.”

So, I slowly, I’d say over the next 15- 20 years, started to get “Star Trek” from that moment, and it probably took me about that long to have it fully registered. Well, that’s an exaggeration. I did get it. It’s just that, as you get older and mature and continue to watch “Star Trek”, you can go back and watch shows again and then see it in a whole new way. Because of how you might mature over time.

Sarah Ray: Literally what we’re doing –

Allie Ashmead: -we’re doing right now. That’s exactly what we’re doing.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: So we do that for our podcast “Mission Log”. And we went back and rewatched “The Next Generation”, which I hadn’t seen in, I don’t know, it was 10- 15- whatever years.

And again, it was almost an entire– I’m exaggerating, but it was a very different show because there were more mature topic matters that I finally understood.

Sarah Ray: I think as ages go, I think you are, between Allie and I, and I won’t tell you which direction they actually go.

Allie Ashmead: I think you’re one year off.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: I’m 49. I was born in ’74.

Allie Ashmead: Yep. I’m one year older. Yeah. Yeah. We’re all around the same era.

Sarah Ray: We kind of talked a little bit about that in the beginning too, where I think our love of “Star Trek” came — mine specifically came directly from “Next Gen” because that was the series that was on when I was growing up. There’s just so much about being able to connect with that. I didn’t understand it then either, and it is, it’s so much fun now to go back and re-watch it and be like, “Oh my God, that’s what we were talking about. I had no idea I was watching a fun show in space.”

Allie Ashmead: Yep, me too. I started watching the old TOS reruns in the ’70s, but I was like, less than 10 years old so I don’t think I knew what I was watching. The reason I watched it was because of my mother and Nichelle Nichols was on there and that’s why she watched it. And like you, I didn’t get the magnitude of what that meant until much later, of having a black woman on the bridge.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: I certainly didn’t get that until much later. You know, it’s interesting that you say that. I don’t know if I’m, I’m gonna make a correlation here, but I’m not sure it’s significant to anyone but me.

Allie Ashmead: Go for it!

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Well, I wasn’t brought up with religion. I didn’t go to church. My high school had every Thursday we had to go to chapel, but it was just our time to goof around. But I wasn’t brought up going to church or believing in anything beyond, I don’t wanna say beyond reality, but anything like that. I really do not mean to make it sound like, but I guess I will, that I was brought up — I was oblivious, you know? I mean, so many of us live in our bubbles today, but as a kid, yeah I grew up in an affluent neighborhood. My elementary school had a couple, one or two black kids in it, and my high school had a few more. But I wasn’t aware.

Christianity, so I didn’t know Christianity. I was like, what the hell’s Jewish? I didn’t even understand what that was. I’ve been brought up oblivious to these things. I’m 49 now. I would like to consider myself far less oblivious today, but it’s just an interesting thing kind of being brought up without knowing what’s going on in the world, which is maybe a blessing and a curse. I don’t know.

Allie Ashmead: Yeah. I think it’s a little bit of both.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: So I can never speak to any of those topics. And it’s interesting, I love talking to you guys because when it comes to religion, I don’t have discussions or debates with people because, one of the first things I’ll get is, “Well, have you ever read the Bible?” and I’m like, “No! No, I would never read the Bible. I mean, if you wanna make a fun animated movie out of it that’s got action and a superhero, that would be cool to watch.” But I’m not gonna debate anything with anyone. You believe what you want, and I’m gonna do my thing and we can talk about ethics and morals and stuff like that in general, but I’m not gonna tell you, “You’re wrong.” I’m just gonna say, “I don’t believe it.”

Sarah Ray: You mentioned working as a PA as a teen. Was there any pressure to follow in your father’s footsteps?

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Mmmmmmmm, not really.

Sarah Ray: Before you launched this whole Roddenberry empire, what were you doing?

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: [Laughs] Good point. No kidding.

You know, the short answer to the question is: yes and no. The long answer is: my parents got me into doing commercials when I was a kid, so I maybe did five commercials as a kid. They wanted me in the entertainment industry, but again, I wasn’t aware or appreciative of the bigger picture, like what they were thinking. And of course, being 13, my father forced me to work as a PA on “Star Trek” because it was summer and I wanted to have fun with my friends. So I never felt directly the pressure of needing to go into the industry.

The only time I ever really felt pressure was pretty much sort of years after my father passed away and I was sort of like, “Well, what the hell am I gonna do with my life? What do I wanna do with my life?” And I started to really kind of learn what the “Star Trek” stuff was about.

And here’s the difference. My father worked on a show called “Star Trek”, and I don’t wanna sound like I was completely oblivious, but I had gone to conventions, people revered it, people loved it. I had seen some of it. I thought, “You know, it’s interesting,” but I didn’t get it. And it was when people started coming up to me, telling me stories of how “Star Trek” changed their lives, whether they were in an abusive relationship, whether they were belittled in any way, whether they were told they could never do anything, whatever the situation was in their life.

And I don’t mean to minimize it by just making it a sound bite, but there are so many incredible and terrible and wonderful stories out there. I was like, “Holy shit! “Star Trek” did this? Wait a second.” It was this process of me meeting people and learning how “Star Trek” affected them and inspired them and gave them hope for the future. That made me go like, “Oh wow! Hold on. This thing my father does is a whole lot bigger than just a TV show.” and that’s the “holy shit!” moment. That’s the, “wait, I have to… do I have to carry this on? Wait, I don’t know if I can do this.”

So, yes, the long answer is, as I got older, as I understood more about what “Star Trek” was, being far beyond just a TV show, then the pressure came on, then the immensity of what this legacy was hit me. And the short, well, I keep saying the short and the long answer and I’m not doing either very well.

I now feel very comfortable ’cause I’m doing it my way. I am not Gene Roddenberry. I never think I want to be Gene Roddenberry. Of course I love and admire my father, but I’ll be myself. And I’ll carry it on however I carry it on. There will never be another Gene Roddenberry and I am never gonna measure my success by his and what he created.

I love him. I love “Star Trek”. I love the messaging and I will fight for the messaging more than I’ll even fight for the show itself because I believe in that future.

Sarah Ray: You talk about the weight that your father carries in the universe and I think of Gene Roddenberry as a sort of Walt Disney kind of character.

And, in that I mean in the creative visionary person, but also in a figure that people tend to kind of worship a little bit. And I know like, I’m sure you see this stuff all the time where you’ll do something in New Trek and, you know, some fans are all, “Gene would be rolling in his grave about X, Y, Z,” whatever.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Oh yeah.

Sarah Ray: And like, okay, but did you know the guy? Like, come on, shut up. I worked at Disney for like 10 years and I heard that same thing about Walt from guests and the people that I worked with, and like everybody seemed to think they knew. So, what I think the more interesting question is, not how would your father feel about what Trek is doing today? It’s how would your father feel about the current state of the world today?

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Ugh.

Sarah Ray: And what do you think his message would be for us?

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Man, that’s-

Allie Ashmead: Heavy.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: That is a tough one. Yeah, that’s heavy.

So, just some background. He passed away when I was 17. You know, I never really sat down and had adult conversations with him. So I can never speak for him and will never claim to be speaking for him. What everyone should hear me saying is, this is my interpretation and my best guess.

And to be completely honest, It is also what I think ’cause that’s all I can really pull from. You know, there’s speeches out there. If you YouTube “Gene Roddenberry”, there’s a number of interviews and speeches and he often said, and I think fans out there would hear this and have heard this already: that we are a young child species right now. We’re young in our adolescence. In terms of our maturity level as a species, as a whole. And as young adolescents do, they fight, and they yell, and they unfortunately start wars, and they have to learn from those mistakes before they can get to maturity and adulthood.

And he has said that in the past, and I think he would continue to say that today.

He certainly had an optimism and I would believe that if he were around today, he would probably say something that would even surprise me by pointing out many of the positives in society. While we can all point out the negatives, and he would not ignore them, we know they’re there. He would say, “But we have to look at the positives, where we are making progress.”

I will personally say it is often hard for me to do that. While I do not think we’re in a death spiral in terms of society, it is hard to see the positive. There are still plenty of great people out there, but there’s a lot more volume on the negative. The lack of diversity and equity in — globally.

But I guess there was in the ’60s and ’70s. It’s on some level nothing new. I guess maybe the volume’s just a little bit louder on it now. That is my only hope is the fact that we just hear about it more, but I think he would bring some optimism into it and I can’t say what for sure.

In terms of technology and science, we are making great strides and progress there. But there’s a whole nother thing, if we wanna get into AI and what our future might be like and deep fake.

Sarah Ray: And these are all things that “Star Trek” has poked at with a stick.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Allie Ashmead: Yeah.

Sarah Ray: You said something that made me think of, again the sort of, “This isn’t my ‘Star Trek'” crap and hey, “Star Trek” fans, stop doing that shit. Just stop. Right?

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: [Laughs]

Sarah Ray: TOS fans were super skeptical and hated “Next Gen.” like just quit, right. We love our “Star Trek”. Stop with this bullshit.

Allie Ashmead: All of them!

Sarah Ray: All of them. Yeah.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Well, I guess everyone can do whatever they want.

Sarah Ray: Yeah. For sure.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Yeah, I’ll let you finish your question, but I’ve even got some more on that.

Sarah Ray: Well, a lot of times I think what we hear from those people is like, oh, “‘Star Trek’s’ too dark” or “the storytelling is different than whatever my ‘Star Trek’ was”, right? You guys aren’t making “The Next Generation” today. And that’s good. That’s an okay thing.

But the message for me was never that the future is bright and happy. It was that humans are complicated and that we can build a better future, but we’ve gotta get over some of our shit first for it to ever happen.

And two, you have to have an optimism that it can and will get better.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Yeah, that’s beautifully well put. I mostly agree with you and it’s not about agreement/ disagreement necessarily. Again, it’s just people with different opinions on things. You know, I wrestled with the new “Star Trek”, and it’s, I’m gonna just use the term darkness, just ’cause you used it as well.

And it tends to be grittier in some cases and be a little bit darker. There is still plenty of optimism in it and the problem with me and asking me about this stuff is, I’ll use the argument that I’m sure many people would use on me is that I’m probably just a little too close.

Gene Roddenberry was my father, and for those who don’t know me, I truly, with all of my heart, and I said this a little bit earlier, believe in that future and believe we are capable of that future and get so frustrated when we as a species do stupid shit to each other. And believe me, I’m not saying I’m above anyone else. I do stupid shit all the time. So, I just have to check myself and learn from my mistakes, as we all do.

There is a lot of optimism still in “Star Trek”. I do have the opportunity to go back and watch these things, and read the scripts and I do see that.

I always loved “Next Generation” because within the Starship, within the Enterprise D it showed a group of mostly humans, but not all, who could come together and work together. There was a captain who didn’t lead with authority, but he led with respect. And the people, I’ll use the word under him, were the best at what they could do. They were the best in their departments and he knew that and he trusted them.

And so being a leader was about having informed decisions. It’s not about knowing everything, it’s about listening to the people and then drawing your own conclusions and leading from that, and that’s exactly what Picard did. And I value that in humanity so much, for us to be able to work together by listening to each other, even if we disagree.

I mean, that’s how you grow as a species. You hear something you disagree with, but it’s a different point of view, something you haven’t considered. And even if you don’t agree with it, there might be a little piece of it that helps you evolve your own ideology or your own philosophy on that topic. Like I used to think of it this way. But I heard something kind of batshit crazy. Pardon my language. But you know what? There was a little piece of that that makes me wonder, I wonder if my ideas just a little bit off and could use a little rejiggering a bit. And that’s how I think we grow.

And I can sit here on my high horse and talk about how we should all be doing that. It’s hard to do. I don’t run up to people who have completely different philosophies and views that I have and say, “Tell me everything you think,” because I don’t wanna get stuck in that situation of having to be like, “Oh, this guy’s an idiot. Clearly they don’t know what they’re talking about.” Because you know what? That’s what I’ll do.

But then later on, hopefully I’ll say, “Oh, you know what? A little bit of that sunk in,” you know? Sorry, I go on tangents and so you’ll have to reel me back every now and then.

Allie Ashmead: We love tangents.

Sarah Ray: Our whole show is just tangents.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Well, I apologize to any audience members who don’t like tangents.

Sarah Ray: Well, if they’re still with us at this point, they don’t mind.

Allie Ashmead: They like tangents. Yeah.

“Star Trek’s” always been a story about exploration, and we’ve talked on the show before about how science fiction, when it’s done right, and which “Star Trek” has done really well, the true exploration is the human condition, social issues, morality questions under the guise of exploring space. What do you think has been the most significant theme that’s been tackled by the franchise?

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: That’s a great question. The most, ah, ugh,

Allie Ashmead: There’s so many.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: There really are because I wanna say one, but I’m having a problem saying, “Oh, that was in this episode.” I’m gonna mostly answer your question and it has to do with what we were just talking about. And I wanna say that I’ve seen a good amount of it in “Discovery,” which is different points of view.

Like conflict resolution.

When you have another character that has completely different viewpoints than you do. Do you say, “What an idiot!” and throw up your hands? Or do you tackle it head on? On the Enterprise or on Discovery or whatever ship it is, you can’t throw up your arms and say, “What an idiot.” You have to figure out a common language, a common way of having a discussion.

So many of us in today’s society, myself included, throw up our hands and say, “What an idiot,” turn off the channel, leave whatever the situation is, or get angry and just start yelling because we get emotional about it. Many of us don’t have the skillset to say something like, and again, I’m not saying this is the right way to do it, “Oh. Wow. I hear what you’re saying. I never even considered that point of view before. I totally see it this other way. But I think what you’re saying is very interesting. Would you be willing to have a rational, logical conversation and are you willing to hear me say, ‘I don’t agree with you?'” But then have a discussion about it. Again, I’m preaching because it’s hard as hell to do, but I like it when you have that in episodes.

Allie Ashmead: Same. I think people today have a hard time articulating how they feel about a certain thing. They just think, “oh, I just feel this way.” And it is also emotional because they feel offended if you don’t agree. So those two things are a couple of the things that keep people from talking.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Yeah and I’ve done it too. I mean, plenty. Often. Recent. In fact, I could think of things that are probably on TV right now that might be in the political realm that I might just say some terrible things about and turn off the TV. And then take a moment and be like, “There’s gotta be a different way to understand this.”

Sarah Ray: When I think about the humanism, the values that were woven into these stories, like equality and diversity and empathy– and while that was true for the original Trek, the network did kind of have a stranglehold on just how much Gene was allowed to go with that.

You’re in a position now to take this universe to places that your father may have only dreamed of, but wasn’t allowed. I mean, spoiler alert, you have trans and non-binary characters playing major roles in these current stories and thank you for that.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Yep.

Sarah Ray: Like we so often hear with people of color and Nichelle Nichols, seeing myself in a “Star Trek” episode is, it’s so meaningful and I think it’s great that you’ve been able to go into those places that the series maybe hadn’t before.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: I’m very blown away and thrilled that they’re doing it. I’m bummed that it’s taken this long. But of course, I’m not gonna sit there and bash anyone, you know, saying, “should have done it sooner.” I mean, listen, back in the “Next Generation” days, I know for a fact they weren’t tackling any issues with homosexuality because they were gonna lose stations audience members. So, yeah, business got into it and the answer was “no”. And so the only way they could do it was sort of roundabout ways, which “Star Trek” is generally pretty good at.

But obviously they didn’t put nearly as much emphasis into these areas and just focused, I don’t wanna say it’s safe, but more on the safe areas. If anything, “The Original Series” certainly took more risks for the era than “Next Gen” did. But I’m glad now that “Discovery’s” out there and all the shows are out there quote-unquote “taking these risks.” And you know what? I hope it’s pissing some people off.

Allie Ashmead: Me too.

Sarah Ray: Good trouble.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Yeah, it is good trouble. And I’m gonna use the trigger word “woke”, you know, this wokeness and whatever that means to you. I have two different feelings on it. Sometimes yeah, I think people are getting too triggered and emotional, but the other times I’m like, “You know what? These are issues that need to be discussed, whether people like it or not.” So, I fall on both sides of that, and then how much is too much or is there ever too (much)?

It’s not easy. The only easy thing to do is to, I think, take a point of view and stand by it and share it, and just expect the criticism and feedback. And that’s fine.

Sarah Ray: I think so much of what you see in media, we all have to remember this is a reflection of the time.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Yes.

Sarah Ray: Like, we’re all looking back at “Friends” now going, “Oh my God, how cringe,” but at the time, right, the times were different. We just finished the first season, season one of “The Original Series”. And it’s been interesting for us to pick through what was and wasn’t allowed.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Yes. Sexism galore!

Sarah Ray: I mean, all over the place!

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Depending on how critical you wanna be.

Allie Ashmead: Oh, we were very critical.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Slap that Yeoman on the ass. I think maybe they didn’t slap her, but [crosstalk] as she walked by, episode one. Yeah.

Sarah Ray: Charlie X sure did.

There was a moment in that very first episode we started in and I think we both were like, “Star Trek’s” been woke from day one! From episode one! From “The Cage,” “Star Trek” has been woke. Please sit down.

Allie Ashmead: Our definition of woke is just aware and empathetic. Not triggered.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: I know. These are trigger words. Right? And we all have our own versions of them. I’ll just use it because, you know what, it’s something to discuss.

Sarah Ray: Well, as another example of how I re-watch, and I do about once a year. I go back and do a re-watch and the things that I do see differently, because I’d watched “The Original Series” a few times before and this time while specifically looking at it through my humanist glasses for things that we were gonna talk about at the end of the show, about the humanism and the values and the themes.

Poor Spock. I never read that as any kind of coded racism until now. Until now, now as an adult.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: I’m so lost on what you’re saying. Wait, wait. What are you saying? Where’s the ra–?

Sarah Ray: So the way that Kirk and McCoy treat Spock, and they do it in this — like a playful, ‘we’re friends joking around’ kind of way.

But I had an experience when I worked at Disney with a black guy that I worked with, who I would say some really racist shit to. And at the time I thought I was just joking around with a friend but now I recognize it for the racism that it was, and I’m seeing that in the way that Kirk and– especially McCoy. McCoy big time.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Interesting!

Sarah Ray: They talk about his logic and he’s emotionless and his pointed ears and green blood. It reads as racism to me in a way that it never did before. Talk about being woke.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Woah. I was gonna say, I’ve never even thought of it that way, but the way you just said it, like whether you’re talking about someone’s pointy ears or skin color…

Allie Ashmead: Oh yeah.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Interesting.

Allie Ashmead: It’s very cringe to go back and watch through this lens, because I’m just thinking, when I was a kid I didn’t think McCoy was a racist, but he’s totally a racist! I think they were just joking. It wasn’t meant to be that way, but that’s the lens. That’s what it seems like now through today’s lens.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: This is fascinating! Yeah. Today’s lens. Wow! I have never thought of that with Spock and that is blowing me away. And I’m so appreciative and thankful for even giving me that perspective. That is crazy.

And it’s really an interesting discussion. I mean, firmly, I believe things done in the past, you kind of let them be the past. I mean, cancel culture and all that sort of stuff, you know? I don’t even wanna get into it.

I’ll admit to everyone right now. I used to love as a young kid, Eddie Murphy’s “Delirious.” And I went back and listened to that a few years ago during covid, just to see. And I was basically with friends, but almost alone. And I was like looking around like, “Are people seeing me laugh at th– is this terrible?”

I felt bad watching it ’cause I used to love it and repeat certain lines in there. Not like derogatorily to people, but because it was funny when he did ’em. Should Eddie Murphy be canceled for that? You know, I say no, but it’s some harsh stuff!

Allie Ashmead: It was the time. It was okay at that time.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Is it weird because, is it okay? I’m sorry to interrupt you, but that’s the discussion, right? Is it…

Allie Ashmead: Maybe ‘okay’ was not the right word, but maybe it was just accepted at that time.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Yeah, and does it make it okay to accept it now? Is it okay to say, and I’m just again being open, saying, “I used to love Eddie Murphy’s ‘Delirious'”? Not my first go-to humor time right now. But I can remember just thinking it was great. Should I be canceled for liking that? I kinda don’t care if I am canceled ’cause I’m not really a big celebrity but that’s all right. Everyone, you’re welcome to cancel me right now.

Allie Ashmead: You are to us!

Sarah Ray: Yeah, for sure.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Perfect. Please cancel me.

Sarah Ray: Boy howdy, after this episode, you will be.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Yeah. No kidding.

Sarah Ray: I think about like, I grew up on Disney movies. I loved “Song of the South” and now we’re taking rides out of Disney because we’re gonna put that one on the shelf and not talk about it anymore. There’s a lot of things like (that). I tend to be a kind of person who, not necessarily with these specific things, but like with yours, I can separate the person from the art. Right? If we find out that, you know, Michael Jackson, maybe he wasn’t the greatest guy or who- whatever, right? I can still enjoy the music and there are people in this world who cannot. There are people who can’t separate the person from the thing.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: But this is what’s so fascinating about this. Then you get into symbology and symbolic natures of things and statues and flags and these sorts of things.

So while I’m certainly against the Confederate flag for what it stands for, or it’s mainly understood as. Are we just now going to accept that as a piece of history, like in a museum? Absolutely. I think those statues, I think they should be nicely taken down and put museums as a piece of our history.

But then I have the same argument against myself. Well, then should it be okay to listen to Eddie Murphy or listen to Michael Jackson? I mean, it’s still same kind of idea. So, I’m conflicted. I’m really conflicted because I think Michael Jackson’s music’s great.

Allie Ashmead: So do I! But…

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: But considering what he did, yeah.

Allie Ashmead: There’s that cloud that’s hanging.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Yeah, no kidding.

Allie Ashmead: But yeah, the music is amazing.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: I’m glad this conversation’s so light!

Sarah Ray: Yeah, not to bring you down!

We were sort of talking about the things “Star Trek” looked at, and the way you look at them different–

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Yes. Back to “Star Trek”.

Sarah Ray: Yes. The way you look at them differently, at different stages of your life on a rewatch. A big one, and I’ve talked about this a little bit and I cannot wait until we get to “Next Generation” to talk about this.

Allie Ashmead: Oh, me too.

Sarah Ray: The episode, “Half a Life” where your mother as Lwaxana Troi falls in love with an alien and he’s about to essentially end his life while he’s still youngish and healthy and she doesn’t understand that cultural difference. It was billed as kind of a ritual suicide in the episode and I didn’t connect this at the time, but many years later when we started talking, it was Death with Dignity. When we started talking about Death with Dignity in– at least secular cultures are having these conversations.

Here was “Star Trek,” again, far beyond its time making us think about shit that just, we wouldn’t–

Allie Ashmead: We hadn’t even considered.

Sarah Ray: We hadn’t even, no, not even close to that. Like, why should we live until our bodies give up, or to painful random diseases that ravish us. Why don’t we go when we choose and not place the burden and expense of caring for a sick and dying elderly person on our kids? I don’t want my kids to have that burden. Or that a planned death gives you a chance to say goodbye to each other that a lot of times, we just don’t get that. Memories. You may have completely lost your mental faculties and forget who you even are.

Should we– what is the morality of allowing that to happen? Of allowing an elder person to be in a lot of pain.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Or imposing our point of view on them. That’s tough as hell. I mean, different but related, my personal belief is, you know, if people want to end their lives in a euthanasia, in a safe way surrounded by loved ones, I think people should be able to do that. But then, were they of sound mind, were they somehow swayed? Life is complicated.

Sarah Ray: Yeah. Nothing is cut and dry.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: In the same category of great episodes that really make you, in my opinion, think and question the way you see things, how I see things and what you would do in that situation. “Strange New Worlds,” episode six, “Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach.” Spoiler alert for anyone who hasn’t seen it, but it’s the one with the child that is sacrificed for basically a utopian society. I mean the premise is: if you could aleve all suffering on planet Earth– everything. Everything, no one would suffer, everyone had food, energy, education, everything like that– by sacrificing one child. So one child would have to spend, I don’t remember how long it was, but years or their entire life, basically suffering hooked up to this machine because it somehow provided the power they needed to give everyone what they needed.

Is that worth it? And of course in the episode, Pike says, “No”. I can’t remember the actress’s name, but the one that played against him, the female said, ‘Well, you can’t tell me on Earth you don’t let countless children and people suffer on a daily basis. You’re already doing this. For nothing. “Star Trek” is at its best when it’s presenting these questions that make you go, “Holy crap, I don’t know which way’s up, down, right, left, good, bad. I don’t know how to answer this.” Anyhow, wanted to bring that up.

Allie Ashmead: I find myself doing that exact thing when I’m watching it. I’m so into it that inside I’m in turmoil because I’m literally putting myself in that position and I’m just thinking, “Oh my God, what do I, what would I do? I don’t know what’s right, what’s wrong? I don’t know.” But I love that “Star Trek” is able to make me do that.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Not all the time, but when it does, God, that’s the kind of show we need.

Sarah Ray: We talk a lot about the big questions and oftentimes Trek is just putting a spotlight on those problems that are existing today, and then there are those of us who are out there also trying to make those things come into reality.

And that’s some of the work that you do with the Roddenberry Foundation. Can you talk a little bit about some of the causes that you’re passionate about and how the Roddenberry Foundation is helping to make a difference?

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: I really can’t take too much credit for the Roddenberry Foundation, or at least where the foundation is now. And not to sound like I have nothing to do with it. I, with four other board members work with a team of people, our CEO– the whole idea behind it was to continue the “Star Trek” or “Roddenberry” philosophy. And to do that in our mind was to find organizations, individuals, institutions that were working towards that long-term advancement of our species.

Since then, while we’ve continued to do that, we’ve also developed programs that find people out there in the world who are either trying to help their community, their village, their town, and who they themselves are trying to find a long-term solution for whatever their issues are. So I guess in a nutshell, that’s the idea here, is sort of find the people out there who have that vision of tomorrow, that “Star Trek” vision.

They don’t ever have to have seen “Star Trek” or they don’t even have to like “Star Trek”, but they still believe in that better future. So it’s to find those individuals and help them out either with funding or by connecting them with people that can help them in their community. And we have a number of programs that do that as well as a yearly prize, or not yearly, but every two years we, we have a prize.

That is usually our big thing that is a million dollar prize. This year it is 1.5- 1.2? Anyhow, it was divided over, I think six winners. A grand prize winner and five others who are more technology-based in terms of finding solutions for our species.

Sarah Ray: Allie and I both do some work with a nonprofit that works in similar spaces, with local community groups who are doing work around food insecurity, housing and homelessness and all the issues that they’re facing. So we see the need and love, absolutely love that what you’re doing helps lift all ships and carry on the soul, the belief of “Star Trek”.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Oh, well, thank you. All we’re doing is trying to elevate and support the people who are already doing the work, so by no means can we take any credit except for finding them and applauding what they’re doing and saying, “Hey everyone, check out what they’re doing. Let’s support them further.”

Allie Ashmead: That’s amazing.

Sarah Ray: Love it. Finally, for me, this is one of those questions people either love or hate. What is something that you wish you would get asked more that doesn’t normally come up?

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Oh wow. Wow. Wow!

Sarah Ray: This feeling that you’re having right now, that’s the thing people either love or hate. Either you thrive on that or you’re like, “Oh God, get me outta here!”

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: If I have a great answer, I love it. You know, we hit on it and I don’t wanna beat a dead horse. Even though I took the opportunity to get into sort of atheism and humanism and religion and all this sort of stuff, I do appreciate– appreciate makes it sound like I don’t appreciate what you guys asked– but I do appreciate when people ask me about the “Star Trek” philosophy, which we have gone into already, and maybe I do it at nauseum already, but the IDIC philosophy, the appreciation for everything different.

Infinite Diversity from Infinite Combinations. Again, touched on it already, but to have this sort of open-mindedness to be willing to hear or consider any other point of view. I guess I like it when people challenge me on that, which I did to myself already. But if they say, “Well, hey, you talk about all this IDIC, you talk about appreciating different points of views, different ideas and philosophies. Why don’t you go talk to a religious person or why don’t you go to a Mormon church? Or, you know, why don’t you–,” and I’m like, “Oh, well, you know, I know I said that…” and I don’t wanna sound like such a hypocrite, but I do appreciate it when someone has the other knowledge. For example, if one of you were, and Mormon maybe the worst example ever, but if one of you were Mormon and said to me, “You know what? I know you said you don’t believe in it, but I’d love to have coffee with you and have the kind of discussion with you and actually kind of push me outta my comfort zone — to have that discussion. This isn’t an invitation for everyone to send me an email and do this to me, but I think I do that ’cause it’s easy. I get comfortable with the kind of things I say and how I say them, and then it’s kind of nice when someone actually makes me do what I’m saying.

Allie Ashmead: That’s cool.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: I mean, I love it and I hate it, but…

Sarah Ray: I think that meeting of the minds and sort of putting your guard down and having open, honest conversations with people, it’s not easy, but you gotta put yourself– you gotta do it. The longer we stay siloed, the longer it’s gonna ever take us to climb the mountains.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Yeah. Absolutely.

Sarah Ray: Is there anything we didn’t hit that you’d like to talk about or promote or just, watch all the “Star Trek”?

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: I appreciate that. I’m very proud of the new “Star Trek”. And I understand and have similar feelings (as) some people that some of these new shows may not be for you. Meaning you are used to “Deep Space Nine” or “The Next Generation” or whatever the case is, or it’s gone too far in this direction or whatever. I don’t disagree with you ’cause the great thing about these new shows that we have out is they’re very different from each other. I mean, we’ve got two animated shows that are also very different.

Allie Ashmead: Yeah. Something for everyone though.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: I would say don’t get completely discouraged. Check out one of the others. Not because I’m just trying to make money and have you watch the shows. There’s good stuff in these shows. And if I can point one out, that is, in my opinion, one you just can’t lose, meaning it’s so pure and I don’t wanna use the word simple, but simply “Star Trek”, it’s “Prodigy”, “Star Trek: Prodigy,” the animated series. I don’t know if you guys have watched it.

Sarah Ray: Oh yeah!

Allie Ashmead: I have not, but I wanna see it.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Oh, please do.

Sarah Ray: It’s so good.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: It’s geared for kids, but it’s for anyone. It is wonderful. It brings up like the classic sort of “Star Trek”, the stuff we were talking about earlier, these questions and how to work with each other and how different people from different walks of life can come together and actually do something great. And there’s plenty of science fiction and action.

And it is not a kid’s show, even though it’s on Nickelodeon. It was incorrectly placed in a kids area. It is easily for adults as well. So, if I can say it to you guys, if I can say it to your audience members, please give a few episodes a shot. I promise you, if you love “Star Trek”, they’ll at least resonate on the classic “I love ‘Star Trek’ level”, in my opinion.

Sarah Ray: I think that’s the one that you watch with your kids.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Absolutely!

Sarah Ray: I think that is like, start there. If you’re thinking, “oh, I want to get my kids into ‘Star Trek'”, start there.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: A hundred percent. Or someone who’s never watched “Star Trek”. It’s definitely for getting into “Star Trek”. But I know what you’ll do. You’ll do what I do, which is after your son or daughter or whoever goes to bed, you will just be curious and watch next episode because the two you just watched were that good.

Sarah Ray: Thank you so much for your time today. Very much appreciate it.

Allie Ashmead: Yes.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: My pleasure.

Sarah Ray: Roddenberry.com is the place to go for all things Rod, Paramount+ for all the Trek you can handle. CEO of Roddenberry Entertainment, Executive Producer of all your favorite New Trek shows, Son of the Fifth House, Holder of the Sacred Chalice of Rixx,

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: [Laughs]

Sarah Ray: Heir to the Holy Rings of Betazed, and Torchbearer of the Roddenberry Legacy. I hope that sticks. Enjoy that. You’re welcome. Rod Roddenberry, everybody! Thanks again for chatting with us. This has been great.

Allie Ashmead: Thank you so much. This has been amazing.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Thank you guys, and thank you for letting me be on the show and I guess talk everyone’s ear off. Thank you.

Sarah Ray: Hey, you’ve got an open invitation, man. Come back anytime.

Allie Ashmead: A hundred percent.

Eugene Roddenberry, Jr.: Appreciate it. Cheers, guys!